My JOC saga...


.22LR
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:17 am
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:38 pm
After all the trouble I have had with my new Winchester Jack O’Connor Custom Tribute rifle I thought things were turning around yesterday with two items found in the mail on the doorstep. First in the mail bundle was an info card on my rifle and its progress at the service center. Unfortunately the service card lists my gun as a Springfield 30-06, that must make Jack roll over in his grave, and when logging on to check the status is appears that mid-April is the earliest I will see the gun stock again as it will be re-checkered, refinished, and the metal parts re-fit. I tried to call Browning (the actual name on the card) and they were all gone for the day so I'll have to clear up my card/account errors lest I get back a 30-06 of some variety(yuck). The second glimmer of hope rested in a box from Lewiston Idaho which I knew contained my complimentary rifle case from the Jack O'Connor Hunting Heritage & Education Center. Much to my surprise I opened the box and found the custom embroidery spelling Lewiston as "LEWISION". Who knows, maybe Mr. O'Connor moved from Lewiston at some point to a township known as Lewision but I doubt it. Anyway, the rifle matches the case perfectly right now. Designed well, well thought out, but executed very poorly in the production phase. I enclosed a picture of the spelling error on the case and I doubt I'll return it because it probably isn't worth all the hassle anyway. I had planned to use it as a travel case in the vehicle when I went to a hunt club or back home when the gun needed a "Grand Entrance", you know what I mean. Anytime I needed to high hat it just a bit and show off my Winchester. For now, I'll just set back and wonder if this ordeal will ever end and now I can't help but have serious concerns about the rifle function, accuracy, and performance when I get the stock back and get it together. I know manufacturing isn't always a process of perfection but I hate being the guy that apparently got "that gun" but at least I have the case to match! I'll enclose a picture of the case. Kind of funny huh, I guess no one checked the work at any point in the process of these cases and they are named for a writer that was a meticulous wordsmith and editor of the highest quality. I bet he would have caught the spelling error .......... but it is likely that no one would have handed him the rifle I received or the case that I received either. Well, the gun has a history and a story to go with it and it has never had a round chambered, not bad huh?
Attachments
JOC Case with work.jpg
Another pic of case
JOC Case with work.jpg (136.02 KiB) Viewed 9965 times
JOC Case LEWISION.jpg
JOC Case misspelled with Lewision
JOC Case LEWISION.jpg (184.99 KiB) Viewed 9965 times
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:08 am
Piling it on ?? I really don't think so, not in the least.. It's an outrageous situation and I'd seriously consider demanding a full refund if this whole deal doesn't meet your expectations when your rifle is returned.... What a bunch of clowns making gun cases for them.... I'd be interested to see if that case has a made in China tag somewhere on it. Makes you wonder what they spend the money on that you paid for this gun. Probably not Q.C.

.22LR
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Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:17 am
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:24 pm
That's a great suggestion and I'll give the case a thorough going over to see where it is made and find out who did the "custom embroidery" per Winchester. Winchester specifically stated that the case was a " free custom embroidered case that is redeemable through the Jack O’Connor Center" which I figured was part of the agreement to use the JOC name and likeness in the advertisement by routing folks to the JOC center for book sales and membership dues. It is a good center but shouldn't be confused with a non-profit foundation. Like I said, it is the perfect case for the rifle I have right now. No chance I am paying who knows how much money to ship back a case and then pay S/H to get another one when I can get just as good a case at Cabelas for half the cost of all this and no aggravation. We have a lovely little sewing/alteration shop here in our little town and nice little Filipino woman who can "Custom Embroider my name on the case with JOC and we'll get the spelling right. You would think that someone had to check these things at some point shouldn't they? It's only 3 lines: Jack O'Connor (check), Lewiston and Idaho (check), Winchester Model 70 (check) good to go.

.22LR
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:17 am
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:36 pm
Skinner-t, great question and just as you surmised. I found the label indicating the case is made and assembled in HENRICH CHINA with materials from HENRICH CHINA. Figures. Who knows where it was embroidered, probably the same place. Oh well, I have given up on the case and don't want to fool with it anymore. I am almost resigned to the fact that the JOC Winchester will have to be sold for whatever I can get. I can't see Winchester refunding anything in this economic climate and it isn't the dealers fault and the dealer sure isn't going to refund any shipping, credit card fees, NICS checks, FFL transfer fees, and shipping to and from Winchester. Even if I got back what I paid for the gun I am still out about 185$ for all the fees I have had to pay including the taxes. Maybe I'll call WInchester Monday and see if I can just send back the action and let them put it back together when they get done and see about a partial refund. If I can get 75% back that is still more than enough for a Kimber Super America and I know it won't arrive flawed or ever worry about how it shoots. I guess my once in a lifetime gun will just end up being a once in a lifetime story but a great lesson learned. Hate to see it end this way though. Me and Winchester go a long way back, all the way back to a pump 22LR carbine and a model 37 single shot 410. I know Browning is in the family too but they make their own stuff and Browning has never ever failed me in the field or the range so I got no beef with them. Maybe they'll come out with a John Browning A-Bolt and I'll get one of those.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:45 am
I too am a long time Winchester fan and owner, so please don't take my comments as bashing the brand. I'm very suprised that they are allowing this quality of workmanship to leave their manufacturing facilities. Here's a bit about my collection so you know why I'm disappointed with what they've done for you so far...I inherited my first Winchester rifle at the age of 3, its a model 1876 in .45-75 caliber. I also own a model 64 - .30-30, 2 pre-64 model 1894's - .32 spl. , a pre war model 70 - .300 H&H, a push feed model 70 - .222, a model 61 - 22LR, a 9422 - .22LR, 9422M - 22 mag, a 9417 - 17 HMR , 2 model 88's one is pre 64, one is post 64 both are .308 cal. , a model 88 carbine - .308 and a model 100 - .284, and finally, a 12 gauge Camo SX3 3-1/2". I've always been very proud to use and show all of my Winchester guns and have always considered their name to be synonymous with pride and quality of workmanship. I can't belive that they would put their name on anything firearms related thats "Made in China" especially a custom case for such an "Iconic" J.O.C. custom tribute rifle. Its truly amazing to see the sacrifices that are made in today's market place just to make an extra buck. Offshore manufacturing just isn't going to produce the the same quality as "Made in USA", the place where this great Company formed its reputation so many years ago.. If the New Haven's plant doors were still open, I don't believe these two things would ever have been allowed to pass through to the outside.

.22LR
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Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:39 pm
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:41 am
I think all of Winchester textile products are made off shore. The case is by Boyd. The spelling error was well documented here a few post below :http://www.winchesterowners.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1315. You have to be carful putting any gun under a macro lens to look for flaws. You will never find a perfect anything if put under a loupe. I think you should have shot the gun first before sending it back for cosmetic corrections. If it was a tack driver like other JOC rifles, you may not want to mess with it. If it shoots like crap, them it could be addressed while it was back at Winchester. Its certainly not a $5k custom rifle but even those might show some defects if held under a macro lens.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:16 am
It sounds like your experience with your JOC rifle is as most of us would have expected all of them to be. I'm glad that you are so happy with yours and also to hear that it shoots well for you. However, I really don't think that SoonerJim is being unreasonable with his assessment of his particular Rifle or the custom case with the spelling mistake. If you consider the points he has made and the extra money spent to get this model, its hard for me to say he's being too picky. The manufacturing flaws & imperfections he's speaking of with his rifle are not limited to cosmetic defects. I would expect any Winchester custom rifle to be up to a certain standard, and when features are offered at a premium they need to be done right. This rifle should absolutely not have problems with bedding, checkering and stock fit. Any gun with these issues / flaws would not meet my expectations, especially if those particular features of the gun are what makes it a custom rifle. It seems to me that he has a few valid complaints and is justified in feeling that he hasn't yet got what he's paid for.

.22LR
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Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:17 am
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:36 am
Skinner-t, agreed. And Mr. Mystro, I could really care less about the case other than the fact that the case was included as part of the selling point by including "a free custom embroidered case from the Jack O'Connor Center". That case was only mailed by the JOC Center as a marketing tool to bring customers and membership for the JOC Center. I did not shoot the gun because I have been around guns and gun dealers far too long to do anything so ridiculous. Once you have an opportunity to inspect a gun you can either note the flaws and notify the company or just go out and shoot it and then its yours for life. The one question every dealer/manufacturer will ask is, "Has the gun been fired by you?" Also, I think the word you are looking for is Micro and not Macro. Not sure there are any such lenses but I understand the point you are trying to make. But I am not nitpicking. The metal buttplate overhung on both sides about 1/16 an inch and the toe overhung about 1/4 inch. The Ebony grip cap was larger than the area of Walnut where they mated in the stock. I did not mic it for obvious reasons but anyone could run their hand down the side or under the forearm and clearly feel the high sharp ridge of the forend cap. The checkering was like mush and Winchester is looking into how that happened. Could just be the wood didn't dry properly, too much finish in the checkering, or a myriad of other things that the service rep could "only make a guess" as to how it happened. The final flaw was that the barrel was not free floated and had high spots in the barrel channel. A bill would not go up more than about 6 or 8 inches before it was abruptly stopped by high wood. No chance that is ever going to contribute to sustained and consistent accuracy over time. I know you gun is awesome and you love your gun and you can't believe that every gun Winchester put out in the JOC series isn't exactly like your gun but mine didn't end up that way. I paid nearly 1000$ more for a gun that had a AAA Walnut stock with tiger figure, a jeweled bolt/extractor, and body, and a checkered steel buttplate, with the deep dark AAA ebony grip cap that shows no grain and is mated perfectly to the stock. In the end I didn't get what I paid for. I certainly could have purchased the JOC Tribute and likely had a very good shooter but I went with the Custom Tribute because I wanted the top shelf grade gun because I am an avid fan of Mr. O'Connor and all of his work. It's certainly not a 5000$ custom gun but it doesn't measure up to a 2600$ Custom Tribute from Winchester either. By the way, I have had emails from 2 other gentlemen who also sent their JOC Custom Tributes back to Winchester for defects in materials or workmanship and their guns are ahead in line of mine. One was for a bad barrel that Winchester is trying to get replaced and the other was for the metalwork on the buttplate and grip cap to be fitted properly and re-blued and the checkering redone. I don't want to go through this exacerbated diatribe with you again about me having every right and responsibility to voice my displeasure with the product I received from Winchester. I speak up when I am happy with my product and I speak up when I am displeased. I am obviously a Winchester fan or I never would have spent close to 3000$ (after shipping, taxes, C/C fees, FFL transfer, and NICS check, bases and rings) had I not had faith that they would deliver a product worth every penny. I didn't get what I paid for and I am speaking up. I do not know why you want to silence me. Brand loyalty must have its limits and I still can't understand why you keep comparing your gun and your excellent experience to my gun and my experience. Just because your JOC Tribute turned out extremely well has absolutely nothing to do with my JOC Custon Tribute. They really are two different guns. The action and barrel likely are machined to the same tolerances but so is the Super Grade, the Sporter and the Featherweight, all of which are very different guns from either of ours. I didn't take any pictures because I don't really care if anyone believes me or not regarding my issues with my gun. Winchester believes me because they have the stock and that's really all that matters. I only posted this to see if anyone else had similar issues. Most photos are easily photo-shopped these days so I rarely believe anything just because someone has a picture any more than I believe any of the multitude of targets I see with one hole, half inch, or 1 inch groups with a magic marker detailing the load and range of 300 or 400 yards. I have heard far too many stories of unbelievable groups from stock sporting arms that out shoot multi-thousand dollar rigs at the local ranges. I can't count how Wal-Mart entry level rifles have out-shot David Tubbs and his best rifle at the local range over the years. But I frequent a few ranges and have never seen a multi-thousand dollar rig at any public range, including every military range I used over the last 30 years and most of those entry level sporters shoot about 1.5" from my observations and that is remarkable when I think back to the accuracy standards we had in the 1970's. We shot coffee cans and paper plates at 200 yards from a table and a rolled up coat or laid down and shot over our packs that we hunted with in Oklahoma. If you stayed on paper you had a good gun and were ready for deer season. Mr. Mysto, I really am happy that you got what you paid for and I know you are happy with your purchase but you must allow those who did not get the satisfaction you were awarded to speak their mind and post their displeasure as they see fit. I really don't understand why you are even concerned with this post, or any of my posts for that matter. It was my understanding that you were admonished from my first posting on this subject and the moderator closed the post after you removed all of your replies. Please don't feel the need to reply to any of my posts in the future. It should be obvious that your input is of no value to me and unsolicited as well. I don't want to argue with anyone on this subject. I want to exchange experience and ideas of like minded, intelligent gentlemen who have experiences that I may benefit from, especially with this particular issue or with Winchester repairs lately. To those who have had problems with their JOC Custom Tribute rifles I do wish you well and I do hope we all end up satisfied.

.22LR
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:17 am
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:57 pm
Checked online and the new estimated date of repair is the first week of May. Winchester/Browning has a nice little site where you can go and check the status of the repairs, According to the site, the buttplate has been reshaped, fitted and replaced, the irregularities removed, the forend fitted and shaped and now awaits final checkering and refinishing. This gives me confidence because at least they acknowledged the need for repairs and are attempting to do what they can to make it right. I hate having to wait almost 5 months but if it comes back the way I hope it does, it will be worth the wait. Good on Winchester for making it easy for us to track our repairs online and not having to stay on hold to wait to talk to someone. I'll keep you guys posted!
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:51 pm
I Really hope that this is just the start of very good news for you.... It really sounds like they are making the effort to get this right ......

.22LR
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:17 am
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:01 am
Unfortunately, nothing is any better months later. The gun was listed to be finished the 8th of May. Still not finished, no communication and wondering if I'll even see it again. ANother phone call this morning and I got the same "it should be finished any day now" but never any guess about which day that might be. This is the worst experience I have ever had with any gun and in complete contrast to all other experiences I have had with Winchester/USRAC in the past, both firearms and the service department. The WInchester custom shop was always a wait and never on time but they told you that up front so it could be expected and accounted for.

Vendor
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:16 am
That's really terrible. It never would have happened when the factory was still in New Haven.

.270 WIN
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Location: Nova Scotia,Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:48 am
This is a sad story the whole way through.Hopefully it will have a happy ending.

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